BRITISH WRESTLING ARCHIVE INTERVIEWS

We hope to bring you a series of interviews with some of the stars and personalities from the world of British Wrestling and we start with referee & wrestler Martin Warren AKA Count von Zuppi.

To start how old were you when you started to get

interested in wrestling ?

I was born in 1961 and grew up watching Saturday

afternoon televised wrestling from as young an age as

I can recall. In black and white and frequently

interrupted by public information announcements! I was

fascinated from the outset by the big names of the

era. I suppose Nagasaki, Kellett, Royals, Street,

Kirk, McManus and Pallo - obvious names maybe, but all

hugely talented  and charismatic individuals

nonetheless - were the earliest wrestlers to really

catch my attention.

Can you remember the first show you attended and who was on the bill ?

Amazingly, I can. I had relentlessly pestered my

father as only a child can to take me to one of the

live shows (run by Relwyskow & Green) at Leeds (where

I grew up) Town Hall for what seemed like forever. He

finally succumbed, I guess, in around 1970. Top of the

bill that night was Kellett/Starr-v- Hell's Angels

(not a bad start really!). The remainder was

Saint-v-Boscik, Kirk -v-Veidor, Royal-v- Quasimodo,

Tony Charles-v-(a very young) Mark Rocco and

Faulkner-v-(a not much older) Marty Jones. There are a

few defining moments in every person's life. That

night was one of mine.

Why did you start to collect results and join Terry

Needhams results group ?

I had always recorded results at all the shows I

attended and thought I was the only one to do this but

it turned out that I wasn't. I eventually become

friends with a chap named Nigel Boulton from

Stoke-on-Trent who introduced me to Terry Needham,

David Jones, Eric Jackson and one or two others. This

was of course essentially how I later got to know

yourself and Ray Plunkett amongst others. Thinking

back to those far off, pre-internet days it was quite

amazing the lines of communication we managed to set

up. I always knew the results from the "big" shows

(Royal Albert Hall etc) within a few days of the

events taking place.

When I first met you , you seconded at various venues how did you start seconding ?

Do you have any memories from this time ?

With the benefit of hindsight this was really a

natural progression. I'd begun to attend shows

slightly further afield by this time and my face was

beginning to be familiar to Max Crabtree and some of

his staff such as Keith Payne and the late Keith

Exley. So instead of having to pay to get into shows,

I'd help out setting up the ring or selling programmes

etc. Seconding and timekeeping was the inevitable

step-up from this. I have many memories of this time

in my life - almost exclusively good - but in the main

I was still amazed how closely involved I had been

privileged to become with the sport which had

fascinated me from early childhood.

How did you progress from seconding to refereeing ?

The same sort of thing. Back in the day, Max Crabtree

ran LOTS of shows. So he always needed reliable and

trustworthy people to perform roles in those shows,

both in the ring and backstage. So I eventually became

Martin Warren the referee. Warren's not my real

surname, but it's pretty close to it and has good

fight business connotations. It was in fact suggested

by my ex-wife and was pretty much the only useful

contribution she ever made to my life!

Who trained you to be a referee ?

A number of people helped out. Jeff Kaye, Max C, Brian

C, Barry Douglas, Ken Lazenby, Ken Joyce.

What memories to you have from being a referee and what was it like to be on TV ?

Are you kidding me? It was fantastic! Twenty years on

people still ask me about THAT Ray Steele-Colonel

Brody-Martin Warren TV finish at Bridlington Royal Spa

Hall........

The big question is how did Martin Warren the

 referee become Count von Zuppi ?

 Whose idea was it and who trained you ?

Ultimately I guess it was Max C's idea, although I

didn't take much persuading. We had talked in general

terms about me working in a mask for some time.

However we never got around to making any firm

arrangements, everyone - including me - was always so

busy. Even then I was driving around 100,000 miles a

year to fulfil wrestling engagements. Then one morning

he 'phoned me at work - I imagine many people reading

this already have some idea what I do for a living in

"real life" so I won't dwell on that - and asked me if

I would wrestle in the Daddy tag at Malton (North

Yorkshire) that night instead of refereeing. And in

that instant Count Von Zuppi was born. I had my doubts

about the name at first, but grew quite fond of it

over the years. Max gave it to me; it was apparently

first used by a masked man back in the 1930s in the

USA. That first bout was myself and Rasputin against

Daddy and Pete Ross. I wasn't great, but I got

through. With a lot of help. I had already received

quite a bit of on-the-job training in bump taking,

timing etc so this helped and I had been taught a few

basics of pro wrestling by Jeff Kaye and Little Prince

several years earlier.

Did you ever wrestle without the mask ?

Once. For Brian Dixon. Martin Warren-v-Bulldog Brown

in a special something-or-other challenge match at

Norwich Corn Exchange. My one and only appearance as a

blue eye!

What was Big Daddy really like ?

You know, even after all this time, people still

always ask me (and probably everyone else involved in

the business) the same two questions about pro

wrestling - 1) Is it fixed? 2) What was Big Daddy

really like? I suspect most people reading this site

have a fairly informed opinion regarding the answer to

the former. As for the latter, the answer to that

could easily take up an entire interview and more on

it's own.

Entirely by coincidence I had known Shirley slightly

ever since my childhood. During his "lean" period of

the late 60s/early 70s he lived quite close to where I

went to school. So I was probably always something of

an "insider" right from the outset. Shirley was a

complex character in many ways. Out of the ring he was

much more intelligent and well read than many give him

credit for. Often he was entertaining, amusing and

articulate company. Sometimes he was a pain in the

backside. In the ring, the deal in the tag was that

everyone worked around his routine. Everyone who went

into it knew that from the outset so I've never really

understood the retrospective moans and complaints of

some former participants. Generally speaking it was

the easiest match it's possible to do. Occasionally he

could be a touch heavy-handed. But so could I and

everything pretty much evened out over time. We'll

have to do another interview sometime if you really

want some day-to-day, match-to-match details!!

You worked for various promoters, what was it like to work for :-

Max Crabtree ?

Max treated me very well for a lot of years and I

worked very hard for him in return. Without him it is

unlikely that I would have ever received a start in

the business, let alone be still giving interviews

about it so many years later. I know he continues to

be criticised for the direction in which he elected to

take his shows following the demise of British

wrestling on terrestrial television in the late 1980s.

But that era was only a small part of his involvement

with pro wrestling. Over his career he created and

moulded more legitimate headliners and household names

than every other promoter who has ever presented shows

in this country combined. I think even knowledgeable

fans would be amazed if they knew just how many of the

routines/finishes/angles which are still regularly

utilised on shows throughout the world today

(including WWE) were initially concieved by Max

Crabtree. He was the original evil genius, way before

Paul Heyman aspired to that title. His energy levels

were just frightening! Certainly he had his

Machiavellian side (if he reads this he'll laugh and

regard that as a compliment of the highest order) but,

to be frank, who amongst us doesn't? And pro wrestling

is a tough business, both inside and outside the ring.

Anyone who thinks otherwise won't get very far.

Brian Dixon ?

Brian Dixon's longevity speaks for itself. He's been

promoting shows on a full-time basis in this country

for over thirty years. Remember too that in his early

years the Joint Promotions circuit had a real monopoly

on all the television names and the major halls. The

landscape of this industry was extremely different

back then. So to say the least his start wasn't easy;

there were no household names he could turn to in

order to guarantee a full house. Things slowly changed

with the defections of Street, Pallo and Kellett but

it probably wasn't until the Quinn-St Clair era that

he had anything even approaching a level playing field

on which to compete. I worked for Brian a great deal

in the early 1990s. He presented tight, well-run and

well-received professional shows and I had the

opportunity to work in a different environment to the

one in which I had spent my formative years.

Any other promoter ?

After the business became more fragmented in the late

1980s I worked at one time or another for just about

anyone who was promoting in this country. Some of

these shows were quite good; some weren't.

What was your first contest as Count von Zuppi and

 your last ?

You've heard how my first contest came about. And I

like to think that just maybe I haven't had my last

one yet.

Did you suffer any injuries ?

A few cuts involving several stitches; a couple of

episodes of concussion; a fractured rib; two broken

bones in my foot; frozen shoulder; a dislocated finger

and a particularly nasty cigarette burn to the throat

courtesy of an irate woman at Derngate Arena

Northampton. All things considered I think I got off

fairly lightly.

Who were your favourite opponents to work with ?

Tony Stewart (Billy Reid on Brian Dixon's shows) was

the best blue eye ever for the Daddy tags. A tough,

capable little bastard who played his role to

perfection and never got the credit he deserved.

Likewise Johnny Kidd and Steve Grey. I always managed

to have fun, riot-inducing matches with Ian McGregor

and Terry Frost. Marty Jones, Drew McDonald  and the

late Pat Roach also let me have great matches with

them - a true privilege. Thanks chaps.

Who was your favourite tag partner ?

Anyone who would step in on cue when I'd had enough!

Who was in charge of the dressing room and who ran

 the shows ?

At Max's shows it was usually himself or Brian. On a

night when several Joint shows were taking place one

of the more senior members of the team would be

entrusted. I recall Jeff Kaye, Marty Jones, Peter

(Tally-Ho)Kaye, Barry Douglas, Gordon Pryor and Sid

Cooper all paying the wages on occasions. I ran a few

shows for Max myself.

Brian Dixon mostly ran his own shows. Sometimes Frank

Casey or John Harris would do the honours. The smaller

(no disrespect intended) promoters ran their own

shows.

Do you follow wrestling at all now ?

I still follow wrestling, but from a distance. It's

difficult to avoid seeing WWE on Sky TV (where, by the

way, it's great to see Dave Finlay finally getting the

recognition he's always deserved on a world-wide

stage) and I try to keep reasonably up to date with

what's happening here in the UK too. In this context I

find it intriguing now to look back over the last 40

years or so and consider who really was the very best

British wrestler ever. A legitimately great pro

wrestler has to combine many attributes, some quite

tangible and some far less so. He must have technical

skill, athletic ability, timing, "the look", presence,

charisma and, crucially, that extra "something" which

connects him with the audience, both in person and on

television. Only a few individuals over the years have

brought almost all of these factors to the table -

Billy Robinson, McManus, Pallo, Bert Royal, Nagasaki,

Rocco, Street, Kellett, Dynamite, Finlay, Quinn (OK,

so he isn't British but he worked here for so long

that it's appropriate to include him) and possibly a

couple more. In my view - and it is only my personal

opinion - the ones who absolutely "had it all" were

(in no particular order) Street, Nagasaki and Finlay.

And I'd place Rocco, Dynamite and Kellett only half a

pace behind these three. That's the end of my

reminiscences for now. I trust they didn't sound too

self-indulgent and that maybe they brought back one or

two fond memories for other people too.

Thanks Martin for your time and trouble.